Use of VoIP while playing POTCO

[Basil Dreadflint]

Using VoIP (Voice Over Internet Protocol)

There has been a lot of discussion here on the forums lately about using VoIP while playing the game. Many people have voiced opinions about it, some for and some against. There have been many statements that the use of VoIP programs are against the Disney Terms of Service, TOS. (By the way, there is no Disney terms of service, they are called Terms of Use. If you are going to quote the rules, make sure you know the rules, first.)

Those who are against VoIP claim it is cheating, and violates the "Use of third party software" rule. Those who are for it, claim that this is not so.

The TOU are written in deliberately vauge terminology when dealing with third party software. The Disney Terms of Use says nothing about VoIP programs.
It's the Disney House Rules (their version of Netiquette) that has a mention about VoIP, but it's about providing PII and information to initiate the connection.

Originally Posted by Disney House Rules / Netiquette
You should never give out any personal information about yourself or anyone else, and never ask for personal information from others. This means no posting of phone numbers, screen or user names (including Voice Over Internet Protocol), addresses, e-mail addresses, Social Security numbers, passwords, or any other private information. In addition, any discussion of Web addresses or social networking Web sites where personal information is, or can be posted or exchanged, (VoIP's again) is not allowed.

This adresses what goes on in Disney chat, and would include the address or instructions on how to load, access, and use the VoIP site/program.

The Member Agreement mentions third-party software but as we all know it's intended for software that changes the PiratesOnline client itself or modifies intended gameplay.

Originally Posted by PiratesOnline Member Agreement
AUTOMATED GAMEPLAY AND OTHER CHEATING METHODS

Use of any software, code, device or other mechanism that allows automated gameplay, expedited gameplay, or other manipulation of gameplay or game client will result in immediate termination of the Account. Disney reserves the right, in its sole and absolute discretion, to determine what constitutes manipulation of gameplay or game client.

The intent of the Member Agreement rule is to make sure that persons do not cheat the GAME. Use of third party programs that cheat the game include Macros, and any program that can be written/acquired that increase a players ability in the game.I.E. Speed software. It also is adressing use of devices and mechanisms that allow automated gameplay. The use of VoIP DOES NOT have any impact on a players game interaction or performance. It DOES however, allow players to communcate without having to take their hands and minds off the task at hand to communicate.

Quite a few persons have asked Disney of this directly, and there have been conflicting answers, some of which are because of the wording and method of the questions being asked.

Below is an actual email exchange between a gamer (not me) and Disney Member services.

from [email protected]
reply-to [email protected]
to <myemail>
date Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 6:06 PM
subject RE: Pirates Online Member Services Ticket: [7804713-27936]

Dear <myname>,

Using it to talk to friend is your choice. However, we discourage any guests from give others their VoIP name or attempt to convince them to download the program to talk to each other. The simple exchange of any Personally Identifiable Information is strictly prohibited. Please refer to the Terms of Use for further details.

Robert
Pirates of the Caribbean Online Member Services

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> From: <myemail>
> Date: Sep 10, 2009 - 10:14 AM
> To: <myemail>
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> Email Address : <myemail>
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> From Name : <myname>
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> Comments or Questions : Quick question.
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> Is using a Voice over IP (VoIP) program while playing Pirates of the
> Caribbean Online regarded as an activity that violates the game's Terms
> of Service (TOS)?
>
> Thank you.
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Ticket ID: 7804713-27936

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Please make note of the way the question was asked. Straighforward and open. No couching the question by saying that it is cheating, no hiding the meaning of the question by stating in the question that in your 'opinion' the terms of usage are being violated. The answer is plain and simple, it is your choice. BUT, do not give out the information in Disney chat. VoIP has been around for over a decade. It has been used by the gaming community since it's inception. Disney knew all about it and it's potential uses long before they even created ToonTown, let alone POTCO. The fact that they do NOT specifically name it in their terms and agreements is because, IT IS THE CHOICE OF THE INDIVIDUAL!

Those who argue that VoIP violates the "third party' rule, should think about everything else they run on their PC. OpenGL and DirectX are third party programs. Your ISP is third party. The wireless router is third party, your anti-virus program, any help you recieve through this site, POF, and even your web browser are third party. If no third party programs at all could be run while you play the game, you would not be able to play the game at all.

Personal opinion: Disney cannot ban any user or group of users that utilize a VoIP program. They CAN ban you for passing the information along ingame. Any group of players who play together, or hold any events together must make their own rules and determinations about the use of VoIP. If the group rules against it, then using it is agianst THEIR rules, but not Disney rules. It is up to them to police it themselves. While it does not give anyone an advantage in questing, fighting, one-on-one PvP, weapons leveling, etc., I can understand how it MAY provide an edge in group activites and competitions such as SvS. Again, it is up to the event organizers and participants to decide how to handle event rule violators.

The threads and postings about the topic have been brash. People have been posting their 'interpretation' of the Disnay rules as if they were facts. Arguements have ensued, and have led to some hard feelings. Many of the posts have needed to be edited or deleted by the mod staff due to trolling/flaming/naming names or other violations of POF policy.

Unless and until Disney makes a hard and fast statement, I recommend that future discussions on the forums should be kept to, "Yes, we allow it in our event", or "No, we don't allow it in our event."
Thanks for reading this.

[Dockwrecker The Privateer]

Perhaps we should be able to talk about things online such as this forum and perhaps its exictence to others as long as it is not "soliciting".Although on a legal basis it might be against either way. You are right on the third party part for sure though.

[Midhav]

if u mean voice chat then i would definitely want it for 16+ because i find it hard to communicate by typing

[Bartholomew Foulsteel]

The original post was very well thought out and written. Here is the email verbatim of what I asked Disney myself:

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Foulsteel

Good afternoon,

I would like some questions answered about the use of Voice Over Internet Protocol (VOIP).

1. Is VOIP use allowed while playing Pirates of the Caribbean Online?

2. Are programs like TEAMSPEAK, VENTRILO, and X-FIRE (all VOIP programs) considered 3rd party programs, as defined in your Members Agreement?

3. If programs like TEAMSPEAK, VENTRILO, and X-FIRE are considered 3rd party programs, why are they?

4. If programs like TEAMSPEAK, VENTRILO, and X-FIRE are not considered 3rd party programs, why are they not?

5. Why is mentioning TEAMSPEAK, VENTRILO, and X-FIRE while playing Pirates of the Caribbean Online offenses for which one can be banned?

6. If the use of VOIP while playing is allowed, why can one not mention TEAMSPEAK, VENTRILO, and X-FIRE while playing Pirates of the Caribbean Online?

7. If the use of VOIP is not allowed while playing Pirates of the Caribbean Online, why isn't it allowed?


Thank you in advance for addressing each of theese questions individually. I want to make sure that the people I know and I do not violate any Terms of Use.

Here's Disney's reply (emphasis added by me):

Originally Posted by Disney Rep

Thank you for contacting us!

Third party programs are considered any program that is not designed by Disney to enhance the game or experience.

We do not endorse the use of VOIP or chat programs, and it is a violation of our Terms of Use. We ask that our guests not give out or ask for any personal information within our game. This includes, but not limited to, phone numbers, e-mail addresses, or URLs for social networking sites.

For more information about the types of activity that might warrant some action against an account, please visit our Netiquette page. The site covers online safety and manners and is located at:

http://home.disney.go.com/guestservices/netiquette

We hope this helps and look forward to seeing you in the Caribbean again soon!

Allyson
Pirates of the Caribbean Online Member Services

Now, my questions were direct and to the point. I did not attempt to influence the answer in any way. Once could not tell whether I wanted to use VOIP or no, only that I wanted to make sure I did not violate Terms of Use, Netiquette, or rules.

It seems very clear to me based on this more precise questioning that the use of VOIP is not in accordance with Disney's rules.

We can argue all day and night for month on end, but as I previously wrote, if there are people who work at POTCO Member Services who say it is against the rules, and others that say it isn't, then you take a chance at violating those rules because it is clear there are Disney reps who believe that VOIP constitutes a 3rd Party program and the use of VOIP is a violation of TOU.

[jason davy]

I guess it would be too much to ask for some consistency and official clarification on their end.

[Aliese]

Well jeez, by their vague definition, listening to music on my computer while playing would be against the rules, because it's played on a third party program and it enhances my experience.

[Bartholomew Foulsteel]

Well, I do believe what we do, as I've said before, is read the intent and not just the letter of the rule. Listening to music has no actual effect on the game. Being a member of this forum has no actual effect on the game. Using VOIP on the other hand DOES have an effect on the game beecause it allows people to bypass the chat filters in game while talking to other pirates in game. there's a big difference.

We can also very safely assume that Disney does not intend any program on your computer to be considered third party. That would be ridiculous. It also would not make sense to assume that programs that are required by POTCO to run POTCO would be third party software. Those are necessary portions of the game that Disney endorses.

I would like to state that if you ask a vague question, you will probably get a vague answer. If you need specific answers to specific questions, you must ask the questions to get the answers.

Finally, it doesn't matter how long VOIP has been around. It also doesn't matter how many other games allow its use. Those are not POTCO issues.

[Benjamin Dreadgull]

Sounds to me like they are saying use VOIP if you want but remember the exchange of personal info is a no no. They are in my opinion covering their backsides.

They are not going to seek out VOIPers but if any trouble came to their attention regarding the transfer of private info they will act on it.

Im sure they are well aware all games use this and its the norm, when playing a Disney game you get an extra layer of cover our backsides, no matter what you ask, you will never get a straight answer.

Arguing about it on here is going to prove nor solve a thing, IMO drop it, if your groups want to use it terrific if they don't, dont. Its a norm on almost ever online game out there.

[Sven Niscadae]

Originally Posted by Disney Rep

We do not endorse the use of VOIP or chat programs, and it is a violation of our Terms of Use.

I'm not real sure that she actually answered your questions, Bart. I think there could be a different interpretation of that single line. What is the "it"? Endorsing or using? Since she followed it up with the "no sharing personal information" line, I'm likely to believe she meant that endorsing VOIP while in game is a violation.

Any email exchange I've had with different Disney Reps regarding this subject have been met with funneling down the answer toward the sharing of personal information as discussed in the Disney House Rules.

A follow-up email from me:

Originally Posted by Sven

Thank you for the reply. I do realize that sharing personally identifiable information is a big no-no while in game; however, I'm looking for more clarity on my original question. Is using a VoIP program while playing against your Terms of Use for POTCO? A Yes or No answer will suffice. Thank you.

Disney's reply:

Originally Posted by Disney

Dear <myname>,

Using it to talk to friend is your choice. However, we discourage any guests from give others their VoIP name or attempt to convince them to download the program to talk to each other. The simple exchange of any Personally Identifiable Information is strictly prohibited. Please refer to the Terms of Use for further details.

Robert
Pirates of the Caribbean Online Member Services

Also, I forwarded them the link to this very thread. The only comment they would make was this:

Originally Posted by Disney

Dear <myname>,

Thank you for contacting the Pirates of the Caribbean Online.

I have reviewed this site and it appears that I definitely agree with the following statement about VoiceIP:

"You should never give out any personal information about yourself or anyone else, and never ask for personal information from others. This means no posting of phone numbers, screen or user names (including Voice Over Internet Protocol), addresses, e-mail addresses, Social Security numbers, passwords, or any other private information. In addition, any discussion of Web addresses or social networking Web sites where personal information is, or can be posted or exchanged, (VoIP's again) is not allowed." - Disney House Rules

We discussed VoIP and Disney still processes violations on users giving out their personal information.

Thank you for contacting us to make sure these rules were still activated. If you have any more concerns, questions, or comments, then feel free to contact us again. Have a great day.

Justin E
Pirates of the Caribbean Online Member Services

So far I can only assume that they cannot definitively say one way or another regarding the usage of VOIP while in game. In reality, Disney cannot know whether someone is using VOIP software while playing because that would require the game to find out, and scanning someone's computer without consent would be an invasion of privacy. The only other way is for someone to share that information using in-game chat.

Originally Posted by jason davy

I guess it would be too much to ask for some consistency and official clarification on their end.

I agree, jason. I wish they would give us a straight Yes or No answer but it was apparently too much to ask.

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Foulsteel

Using VOIP on the other hand DOES have an effect on the game beecause it allows people to bypass the chat filters in game while talking to other pirates in game. there's a big difference.

So does me talking across the room to Zilly. I'm violating chat filters abound. Sarcasm aside, VOIP does nothing to the chat filters (Speedchat, Speedchat Plus, Open Chat, and the new naughty word ban-o-matic). The in-game filters are still intact. Other pirates in game? Only the other pirates who the personal probably already knows outside the game anyway. If someone has already joined onto a VOIP server/channel, they've probably made it around Disney's filters already (through 3rd-party means - email, forums, IM, etc).

As the quoted Disney Rep said in the OP, it is your choice. Use it. Don't use it. But don't share PII in game. That's apparently all Disney has to say about that.

Added 9/19/09: I had sent Disney another follow-up email on Thursday 9/17 regarding this.

Originally Posted by Sven

Thank you but I am already very familiar with all of the available Disney policies (Terms of Use, House Rules, Member Agreement); however, I still did not get my question answered.

Am I in violation of any Disney policies if I play Pirates of the Caribbean Online while talking to my friends, guild, or other players on a VoIP program?

The Terms of Use has no mention of third-party software let alone VoIP software.
The Member Agreement does mention third-party software; however, it pertains to methods of cheating at the game.
The House Rules does have a statement regarding VoIP; however, it's only addressing the sharing of personal information in-game in order to initiate such a conversation.

Please no canned responses. Forward this on to a manager if you need to. The pirate community has this as a hot topic on our fan sites and some real cut and dry clarification would be most helpful. Thank you.

And the reply I got yesterday was from one of their Community Support Managers, who as I predicted side-stepped the entire question yet again.

Originally Posted by Disney Community Support Manager

Dear <myname>,

We here at Pirates of the Caribbean Online appreciate your concern on this topic.

As you know, the giving or sharing of an Personally Identifiable Information is a violation of our Terms of Use as well as our House Rules. In order to maintain a safe online environment for guests of all ages, we must ensure all our guests' gameplay is moderated fairly and consistently across the board. This includes discussion of third-party information sharing software that may or may not be used for the exchange of personal information, thereby possibly comprimising the safety of our younger guests.

We also offer Open Chat for our adult guests, as opposed to Speed Chat Plus.
Whereas the latter chat setting allows players to chat with each other by typing words that are in the game's Speed Chat Plus dictionary, Open Chat allows you to chat with anyone else using Open Chat. It works without the help of the game's dictionary. Remember that some words are still considered inappropriate and are not allowed in Open Chat.

I hope this information is helpful to you.
Thank you,

Kurt
Community Support Manager

Yeah, I think this topic has been deemed "avoid at all costs" over there at the big D. Bottom line is: It is your choice. Use it or don't use it. But don't share personal information (in order to get connected to VOIP) in game.

Disney's comment on the topic is apparently "no comment."

[Bartholomew Foulsteel]

Thanks Sven. I know she didn't answer my questions, but it seemed good enough to me. And as I stated previously, we can go round and round for months attempting to analyze what they meant when they wrote this or what they meant when they said that, but to what purpose?

Which takes me back to the phone conversation I had. Now, I can't reproduce a phone conversation here, but I can relay what I was told. I was very specifically told that VOIP was considered a third party add-on, that its use in game violated the terms of use, the reason was because it allowed people to bypass the chat filters, and that all of that was to protect the children--the reason there are chat filters in the game in the first place.

http://www.piratesonlineforums.com/f...5&postcount=73

So, I know what I have been told. I know I have relayed the information to POF. I know that my motives for sharing this info is and was for the safety of children playing and not for my own personal preferences or for my own benefit. Do with it what you will.

[Basil Dreadflint]

First off, my OP was not intended to be an endorsement nor a deterrent to the use of VoIP. I am, however, going to address Bart's post.

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Foulsteel

The original post was very well thought out and written. (Thank-you) Here is the email verbatim of what I asked Disney myself:

Here's Disney's reply (emphasis added by me):(And removed by me)

Now, my questions were direct and to the point. I did not attempt to influence the answer in any way. Once could not tell whether I wanted to use VOIP or no, only that I wanted to make sure I did not violate Terms of Use, Netiquette, or rules.
(7 very well written and explicit questions, none of which would lead to skewed answers, even containing a request to have them answered individually. WHICH DISNEY DID NOT DO.)
It seems very clear to me based on this more precise questioning that the use of VOIP is not in accordance with Disney's rules.
(I disagree. This is a perfect example of Disney circle-speak. The answer DID NOT address your questions. It says, "Do not ENDORSE the use of", does not say the use of is in violation. The only thing called out as a violation is the passing of personal info.)


We can argue all day and night for month on end, (Exactly the point my OP was trying to make, and I, for one, am tired of the arguing. )but as I previously wrote, if there are people who work at POTCO Member Services who say it is against the rules, and others that say it isn't, then you take a chance at violating those rules because it is clear there are Disney reps who believe that VOIP constitutes a 3rd Party program and the use of VOIP is a violation of TOU.(This last statement I totally agree with. Disney does NOT have a strict policy. They are at odds with themselves on the issue. Some Disney reps say it is up to you, and others say to not use the VoIP.
In truth, Disney has absolutely no method to know if anyone is or is not using it. The only way they even would know about these discussions is by persons questioning them directly, or by them seeing these posts on the forums. The discussions have been ongoing here for weeks. Sven pointed them directly to my OP. And the answer he got back was even MORE circle-speak.

"We discussed VoIP and Disney still processes violations on users giving out their personal information!" Not, "We discussed the use of VoIP while playing the game and have determined it's use to be in vioation." If Disney reads the forums, and had a difinitve answer to the situation, they could easily post so either here, or on their own website, which they have not done. )

I stand by my OP. I just want the arguing to stop.

The threads and postings about the topic have been brash. People have been posting their 'interpretation' of the Disney rules as if they were facts. Arguements have ensued, and have led to some hard feelings. Many of the posts have needed to be edited or deleted by the mod staff due to trolling/flaming/naming names or other violations of POF policy.

Unless and until Disney makes a hard and fast statement, I recommend that future discussions on the forums should be kept to, "Yes, we allow it in our event", or "No, we don't allow it in our event."

[Dr. Zeppers]

I agree Basil.
Wether someone is for or against the subject.
The practice of misquoting the Terms of Use with an individuals own interpretation should stop.

If even Disney cannot give a straight answer, how can anyone believe that they are able to?

[Bartholomew Foulsteel]

Another very well written and thought out post, Basil. I do agree (and have previously stated) that different Disney reps state different things.

But we can all agree that at least some Disney reps (both I have talked to) will see the use of VOIP as against the rules, can we not? And if those reps see the use of VOIP as a violation, then they could ban for the use of it, true?

Zeppers, did somebody misquote the terms of use?

[Dr. Zeppers]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew Foulsteel

Zeppers, did somebody misquote the terms of use?

Bart, recently there have been posts (none by yourself my friend) that have stated things such as "the TOS expressly prohibits", "the rules clearly state", etc. when attempting to justify the standpoint on the subject during discussion of various organizations guidelines/rules. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on the subject, but it is somewhat erroneous to claim the Terms of Use support their opinions, when its obvious that Disney themselves cannot settle upon an answer.

I have had no issues with anyone debating the subject, everyone has their own opinions, and I encourage them to voice them within reason.

[lostmymarbles]

Yikes!

Really strong and well thought out opinions have been posted here. And while I commend Bart on his stand to protect the younger players, I don't believe that use of VoIP is a violation of the TOU.

Yes, giving the personal information is clearly a violation and giving VoIP info in chat violates the TOU. But what about those who did not get there VoIP info from chat? Some of us got our program information from alternate guild sites. This doesn 't violate the game chat rules.

Some of us use YIM to chat with other friends who are POTCO players, but who aren't on our Vent chat. These are people who are friends outside of the game, not just guildmates or pirate friends.

Are we to only talk to our RL friends in game chat only when we are both playing?

I think it is up to us, individually, to choose whether or not to use various communication programs. The use of the programs isn't a violation. The giving out of information is.

As far as children and their safety, the parents are responsible for monitoring their children's use of VoIP programs. They are also responsible for setting the chat limits for their children's accounts.