Clarification on Cheating
 

Today I contacted POTC live chat and asked a simple question.
Does the fact that my son's mouse left click button repeats when
held down constitute cheating? Here is the transcript with the
personal information removed for obvious reasons but the
reference number is left intact for verification purposes. I'm sure
everyone has a personal opinion but here is one official opinion that
actually counts.

Dear Pirates Online Guest,


Thank you for using Pirates Online Live Customer Support.

The following message is a transcript of your chat session with Pirates of the Caribbean Online on 03/08/09 11:03:38am ET.
If you have any questions or comments regarding this message, please refer to ticket number 19162592 in your correspondence.

The initial submission was:

I need some clarification. My mouse left click will repeat left click if u hold it down. This will fire my pistol repeatedly.
Is that considered cheating? There are no macros, scripts or third party programs in use just my mouse repeating the left click over and over?
I need to be sure this is OK because I don't want to get banned for cheating. TY


SERVER:Customer is waiting for Response...
CRYSTAL:Hello
Me:Hi
Me:
Me:IM a teen, and my father is here
Me:
Me:he is typing
Me:hello
CRYSTAL:Hello. I will help you look into this.
Me:TY i would not like to have any problems with POTC
CRYSTAL:There is no reason that what you are describing would be considered cheating. As long as this is not hindering your gameplay I am not concerned about it.
Me:I can verify that there is nothing going on other then the normal mouse left clicking on repeat
CRYSTAL:To better understand, when you hold down the mouse the pistol rapidly fires?
Me:When u hold down the left click mouse button the pistol fires repeatedly
Me:
Me:it fires at a normal rate just over and over
CRYSTAL:That should be fine. There is no reason you would get into trouble for that.
Me:ty so much for your assistance
Me:
CRYSTAL:It sounds like it is working as intended. Can I help you with anything else today?
Me:can i get a transcript just in case there is any further problem?
CRYSTAL:Yes! This will be emailed to the e-mail address you gave when starting this chat after you close it. Check your Junk Mail bin if you don't see it as some e-mail services might put it there.
Me:I would prefer a cc to *****@aol.com that is my email
Me:is that possible also since his account is a childs account
CRYSTAL:Unfortunately this is an automated process and we cannot add or change e-mail addresses.
Me:ok ty for your assistance
CRYSTAL:**********@AOL.COM is the e-mail address it will go to as this is the one you used when starting the chat.
CRYSTAL:You're welcome, and thank you for choosing Pirates Online Chat support. Have a great day!
Me: ty
SERVER:Me has closed the chat Session


Sincerely,

Pirates of the Caribbean Online Support
www.piratesonline.com

Hmmmmm.......good to know. However, I've never tried and don't plan on it. I stick to the basics and play in normal mode as intended.


:jack-sparrow1:

Capt Joe
 

Capt Joe your still on my friends list please contact me at your earliest convenience.
I have a follow up message from POTC that I will post later today if need be.

I must be doing something wrong. It won't work for me.

I agree with their response, I don't see that this could be cheating because if I am understanding correctly, it seems to have the same effect as mashing the mouse button repeatedly.

haha
 

I'd teach you but then what guild would u join?
And yes its nothing more then that. Now put a book
on your mouse and go eat lunch.

What kind of books are we talking about? Shall my accounting book suffice? It's about 3 inches thick. If I put Harry Potter on it I'd end up reading it.

See, now that, to me, is cheating.

please stop
 

Please do not message me in game for information on how to do this.
If you can't figure out how to use your mouse refer to the instruction
manual it came with. If your mouse can't repeat then you need a better
mouse!

Good thing its up to Disney and not you then. Like minds may differ on
the subject but only Disney can call a cheat a cheat.

I think if you can actually manage to survive that, then go for it. ;)

Agreed
 

I agree. For those of you who think this is an easy task
try just sitting there with your pistol shooting nothing
but lead shot at lvl 35 raiders and Gypsys and see how long
you last. You have to know what your doing and have
the right lvl and skills set up for that. This is far from the
easy way to do things, it is in fact difficult to do well.

I dont see that as cheating but... WOW

I asked DIsney the EXACT same question. But I clarified it by itemizing a few conditions that the OP didn't:

What if the person who is using the mouse isn't even there. S/He has set up the mouse, and the pirate, and has walked away from the game. I also clarified that the pirate in question may be using a wall glitch, so that the enemy cannot attack back.

Disney's response is that:

They cannot detect the type of mouse that is in use. They can only detect that the mouse key is being activated. As such, there is basically nothing that they can do or say.

So, I guess the OP is correct. Cheating is in the eye of the beholder. Leveling, and making the leaderboards thru AUTOMATED play, and not actually being there playing the game, is totally acceptable.

well if you are hiding in a wall and leveling and not even there... then I see that as cheating. I'm not a glitcher or a cheater so I'm still gonna say .. WOW:degen:

I agree completely.

I must admit that it's very ergonomic.

Yes you are correct on all parts of that statement and thank you for bothering to ask. Most players are unaware of the real game rules, they play under falsely imposed rules to their own detriment. Since I have asked this same question several different ways and have received similar answers it is my opinion that it is acceptable. I have discussed this with the guild I run and as I tell them all I like to think of it using this hypothetical. If you have something that can make your life easier, hypothetically lets say a way to speak to someone instead of type to them you would be tempted to use it to speed things up since typing is tedious and time consuming and speaking is much easier for most people.
This method of training is no different it just speeds up the process and takes away the tediousness.
As for the hiding in walls, that is to avoid interfering with the game play of others since the raiders and gypsys can go through the wall too(so can stumps on Outcast and undead pirata on Cutthroat!, wall glitching is however frowned upon and I do apologies for that. The last time I stood in the open bad things happened to me) And to clarify I was not invincible/invulnerable, I took normal damage just like everyone else except I was standing out of the way of traffic.
If only everyone was so thoughtful of others gameplay.

I have spoken with D a couple of times and agree with you CGG as long as you are not using macros or any outside programs they don't really care if you go into the walls or any other kind of glitching to lvl. This is what big D considers cheating straight from there site "No Cheating - Any use of third party programs is not allowed. Players who use any third party programs while playing risk being permanently banned."

Using a glitch or unintended part of the game is cheating. Using the repeat click on your mouse is something I cannot consider cheating because, as I said before, you can accomplish the same thing button mashing. However, hiding in a rock where enemies cannot harm you is cheating. But as has been brought up, you just have to play by your own ethical standards. As long as you are not using an advantage against another player and Disney cannot detect that you are "cheating," just do what you feel is right. Personally, I will not hide and "auto-level" but I just can't resist killing soldiers from behind the Kingshead fence. ;)

Technically: the OP is not a cheat/glitch and is not cheating per the stated Disney guidelines.
Philosphically: some would, and do, consider it a cheat/glitch.

Is it a macro? No.
Is it a misuse of the mouse function? I think so.

The OP does not state that a wall glitch was used, but subsequently another post does. However, as pointed out, the NPC's are able to go through the wall and the stated purpose of not interfering with other's gameplay is plausible.

I can see both sides, but I must come down on the side that does not agree with doing it. I know a lot of other pirates that do far worse. And I don't agree with them either, but in comparison, this is a far lower breach of game etiquette. Compared to the videos I have seen of players using actual macros, intentionally glitching to cheat other players, etc, this is low on the totem pole for me. But, it still is matter of what you personally believe.

Gaming keyboards and mice that let you customize their functions such as programming them to do what someone wants are another form of macro (hence they are advertised with a "macro" function). I can see that sometimes a macro'd function on a keyboard or mouse can be useful for people with difficulties or a handicap such as arthritis or carpal tunnel syndrome. Yes, officially Disney only considers macros on the software end. Disney may not call foul at this moment because of their limited policy but they do have the right to change it.

However, I remember back when I played ToonTown, that Disney actually suspended people for using macros (e.g. Doodle trainers) just on suspicion because they were monitoring how users' toons were acting (e.g. jumping constantly, repeated actions, etc). By watching their behavior, Disney could conclude on their own whether or not someone was using a macro. Now whether or not they were correct is questionable. I've seen some people get suspended for hopping down the streets of ToonTown and Big D thought they were using a macro because of the constant jumping. So I wouldn't put it past Disney to use the same technique today to check for macro use, software as well as hardware.

Ultimately, I can understand that level grinding is a very tedious and sometimes boring process. It exists in just about every MMORPG out there. Personally, I don't let grinding get to me. My skills level up when they do and I don't actually work at it as it would take the fun out of the game for me. It's a personal and ethical preference and since I'm just one person, another person's preference may differ as well as their own goals.

TY for distilling this down to its original essence. The mouse driver is a piece of "software" that is integral to the function of the mouse. It is not separate from the mouse but integral to its use. Not every brand and version of mouse has the same driver, some function differently then others. Disney correctly identifies this distinction from a "macro" which is a piece of programing not integral to the mouse function. The "software" I'm discussing is build into the mouse driver and can only be toggled on and off. Thus the wording by the technical staff:

CRYSTAL:That should be fine. There is no reason you would get into trouble for that.
Me:ty so much for your assistance
Me:
CRYSTAL:It sounds like it is working as intended.


As to the future interpretation of the rules one can speculate wildly but thankfully we only need worry about today's rules today.

If your mouse came with a utility (which was installed when you first got the mouse) that can set the behavior of the mouse buttons (e.g. hold = repeat single clicking), then that could be construed as a third-party application according to Disney's policy. That utility wouldn't be "integral" to the basic functions of the mouse though. I'm sure the mouse can be installed with only the driver and not the utility. This is comparable with a video card and its manufacturer's system tray icon for easy access for configuration purposes. This software isn't built into the driver but allows for optional configuration and management.

The point of the latter part of my reply was that even though Disney has the policy written, it's up to their discretion (and techniques/processes involved) on whether or not someone has broken the rules. Future interpretation is up to them as well. Even though someone is doing something innocently enough, Disney could interpret it as something else.

What I'm ultimately driving at is to be careful. It's Disney's playground and they make the rules.

IF is the key word here. The mouse didn't come with any third party application, it only has a single toggle that is labeled "REPEAT". The keyboard has exactly the same toggles so that if you hold down a button it repeats. Adding hypotheticals to this just confuses the discussion and I would be inclined against making any attempts to justify a dissenting argument with facts not in evidence.


Fortunately for me I asked several time before I did anything that might upset POTC/DISNEY and I have a copy of the many transcript to use in my defense should they change their minds. I'm not inclined to speculate on the future but I am always prepared just in case.

Closed at OP Request.